Vote For Who You Think Is More Obtuse: Atheists or Zealots
65Come on! Do you really think you know it all!
All religion or none, both paths are thin lines
Well here's a subject I've wanted to touch on for a long time. I am a firm believer in something, some sort of natural, eternal force, some kind of everlasting energy. I am a believer. But, I don't believe I know, or anyone knows, exactly what is out there making the universe what it is. You may know in a visceral, definitionless way, in your heart, as I feel I do. But as far as the attributes and characteristics of A Deity, A God, A Goddess, I just don't know.
It's very difficult for me, as someone with an inquisitive nature, to listen to someone preach to me that not only do they know exactly what happens to us in the hereafter, but they can tell you to a tee what will happen once your heart stops beating. The individuals you will meet, the name of the place your spirit will reside and so on. They are so positive some of them are willing to kill others just to prove their point: zealots.
On the other hand, I have met many self proclaimed atheists who have assured me that even pondering "the quiet invisible" is a waste of time. That when you're dead you're done. There's no more, no encore, last curtain. What's more, they explain to me time and again, that religion is the cause of all the evil in the world, and that if people would abandon their beliefs in these made up Deities, the world would be a more peaceful place. My problem with that side of the token is that, despite what many atheists ironically preach, namely that humans don't need a strict moral code to be ethical, I believe many people do need a spelled out moral code. There just plain aren't too many charitable organizations created by the Secular Humanist group. There are some, but not enough to catch all the slack left over from governments that religious charities make up for in health care, housing and work training for the destitute. These firm nonbelievers are as conscienceless as the zealots but they are: atheists.
Maybe I'm overreaching though, my point is, atheists and zealots actually have one thing in common, they're both arrogant nincompoops. Give me dialogue with an agnostic any day, or a quiet conversation fishing in a pond with a nonjudgmental religious person. So long as they're not sanctimonious, I'll listen to what they have to say. When I was younger I was so affected by the opinions of those around me. Opinions that as I grew older and looked back on, seemed so dull! So lifeless!Truly zealotry and atheism are a sort of spiritual suicide, to me more sinful than physical suicide. Completely giving way to wild detailed religious expression is dangerous in that you let go of the faculties given to your mind. Just as an atheist who shuts out the light does their best to completely close the door on any spiritual reach. I used to tell my so called atheist friends the joke: the skeleton of the atheist leans over to the skeleton of the believer as they both lie there and says, "See, I told you so!". Apparently hedging your bets is not in the cards for atheists. The only time I can understand the value of atheism is when I see that someone was raised in the house of a zealot and they have been so utterly turned off by that form of severe subjectivity that they just don't want to talk to anybody about anything related to The Great Spirit in any capacity. I just find it sad and boring, because I wish they would dare to divine an expression from within themselves. They might be surprised at what springs fourth from their heart.
I guess I find a great satisfaction in the fact that when a zealot tries to fill my head with all of his or her flavor of spiritual anecdote, I know in my heart that they are just as malignant and contrite as an atheist trying to tell me all my beliefs are worthless. Latitude is the key for me. Sometimes science is mislead, though less so than religious speculation from an empirical point of view. Mostly, I just enjoy hearing what people have to say. As long as it's not about killing and torturing, I'm into whatever the Spirit has brought to them. I'm a devotee of humans being good to each other. Whatever religious flavor you may subscribe to, I hope you give others room for their expression too.
Who's more boring?
Who would you say is most boring, someone who doesn't believe in any God, someone who strictly believes their version is the only true tale or those who allow room for everyone at the table?
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Right there with you Catherine! Thanks for voting and checking out my verbiage! Ben
It,s nice to find this site ; I,ll be checking it daily!!!!
Cool beans azziza, we're glad to have you here! Welcome!
I think both extreme sides are horrible to listen to, but I think I'd rather listen to the zealot - at least they have something to believe in.
Good for you Duchess! I lean towards listening to the atheist struggle there godless argument. But mostly, I like it best when all sides are represented so I'm glad you chimed in here! I agree with you, both extremes are hard on the ears!
The Anishinaabe people have stories of long tradition that include a deity by the name of Gitche Manitou (or, more historically proper "gichi-manidoo"). I think the North American aboriginal people were neither zealots nor athiests, just an intelligent representation of humanity who sought to make sense of their existence.
I would like to have known some of the thoughts of their great thinkers. Some days I ponder the possibility that I have.
Thank you for your warm observation Niteriter. I am honored again by your expression. I haven't been doing as much writing here as I would like lately, doing more side work to make ends meet. Thank God (pun intact) that I have a moment to read again about the Anishinaabe and Gitche Manitou. Cheers my friend.
Ben, I know that to be a 'good' hubber, you are supposed to become involved with the forums, but the insults and nastiness has driven me away. A kind and civilized discussion of religion and religious philosophy can be great, but that is a rare thing.
I know what you mean Dolores about the forums Dolores. What's more, I just don't have much time on the side for babysitting nincompoops! It's difficult to get beyond the nastiness as you say. It seems that in my experience, with religion or politics, it's better to touch or hint on things, then get on with life. Diving deep into touchy convictions is a sure way to shut peoples minds off.
"my point is, atheists and zealots actually have one thing in common, they're both arrogant nincompoops"
Lol..thanks! I call myself an atheist, mainly for convenience and because I have no real beliefs in the supernatural but I agree with you that 'we just don't know'...the universe is a mystery. To me, that's the only reasonable position to take.
One thing I do know..[or think I know], is that that mystery will be solved by science if it can be solved at all. As wyanjen said in one of her hubs:
"One answer at a time we have solved mysteries in the heavens without ever leaving the ground. THIS is profound. Much more so than a myth which dates back to a time before people could explain gravity."
Perhaps the reason atheists sometimes appear zealous and contemptuous is because they are affronted by the constant illogical and irrational arguments of believers. In many cases they're fighting a losing battle as I firmly believe religious belief is bound up with emotional need..and no amount of rational argument will conquer that.
Cheers Ben..it was a very thoughtful hub
I learned a long time ago not to tell people what they "are" philosophically or politically but much like our buddy Arthur Windemere I think you both may need to go to AA (Agnostics Anonymous) but I mean that in the most endearing way of course. I appreciate, and in many ways share your inquisitive and unsure nature, although I lean more toward a roundly spiritual side. But I think with both you and AW I haven't expressed enough that I don't go into many churchhouses anymore unless it's at the request of a dear friend, and I don't subscribe to any religious administrations. I am a wholehearted believer in a living Great Spirit, one that I have a strong, vibrant and yes even rapturous relationship with. Much like ending a sentence with a preposition, I've never been one to abide by gregarious rules set out and modified by bureaucrats and what is for all practical purposes, pharisee.
I have had the pleasure and honor of hearing many peoples religious or nonreligious views and I almost always leave satisfied that I've learned something. But as you say, sometimes you learn something in the negative. The "illogical and irrational arguments" of which you speak are why I walk my spiritual trail alone. I wouldn't be accepted into many churches for my latitude when I feel that's a large part of our existence. I feel that I'm giving a bit of a hub away with the length of this doozy but I wanted to thank you with an equally warm and thoughtful response to yours.
I like to tell Atheists/Agnostics to explore the Native American Indian spiritual tradition for vigor and sincerity, there are many guided avenues to explore. Also, I like to tell Atheists/Agnostics that just because we give everything a name (scientific or otherwise) doesn't make it understood. After all water is what water is, whether we call it aqua or H20. Sometimes all our so-called intelligence steals the true magnificence from life.
Ben,
You're just such a lovely guy I don't think I could ever argue with you about anything!
Thanks Ms. Bovary you make me blush, I appreciate the kind and generous dialogue. I think you could argue with me, you seem open minded enough to me, thanks again for the kind compliment.
I know I could but I'll try not to be a nincompoop about it')
I see where you're coming from Ben but I think you've misunderstood what atheism is in all its variations, and that the real distinction that needs to be made here is not between zealots and atheists and everyone else, but between zealots of all types, religious and non-religious, and non-zealots of all types, religious and non-religious. A zealot is someone who is fanatical in their beliefs, religious or otherwise; most atheists I know aren't like that at all; they won't come knocking on your door with a Richard Dawkins book in hand asking you if you will accept Charles Darwin as your saviour, nor will they ruin your fishing trip by telling you we have about as much chance of getting to the afterlife as the carp. No, they are simply everyday people who don't see enough evidence to believe in any kind of God; they are along for the ride but they think the ride is going to end sometime, for good. Wonder, the human spirit and Joy on the other hand are all well within play for atheists, the religious and everyone in between. I myself am a "I know I know nothing type'. Call me a procrastinator if you like (I could hardly complain with this moniker) but I'm simply not willing to commit. For those who are one way or another, that's fine with me too. As long as we don't shove our beliefs down each others throats or put each other in boxes and show a bit of common understanding there's no reason we can't all get along. So, while I respect your opinions I respectfully disagree.
Now let's go fishing. I promise not to invite Richard.
Thanks for the well thought out response McHamlet! I'm all for the not-shoving-our-beliefs-down-other's-throats school of thought! I guess the reason I was a bit cavalier with some observations was because I've been trying to pick the brains of non believers a little, but also to give zealots and other sanctimonious types a little kick in the pants. I think we see more eye to eye than at first it might seem!
Cheers and thanks for stopping in!
Ben
Zealots like some anti-abortionists who would shoot a person for going to an abortion clinic to kill a child? They are both zealots, aren't they?
One who allows room for everyone at the table? What happens after he/she listens? Does this person believe that all are correct or all matter even if they are not quite what someone thinks is right?
Atheists who press Christians to stop pressing them, who press Christians to "drop that Jesus nonsense" yet strive to insult, belittle Christians in the process?
Christians who sometimes know it all and sometimes do not quite know how to approach zealots and atheists, who sometimes beat zealots and atheists over the heads with their Bibles, who do not know that they cannot do their job and Heaven's, too?
So, you want me to vote on one of these? I suggest adding a bubble with "sometimes all of the above," but I do like a listener because that is how he/she learns what others know, believe, or do not know. He will still have the task of properly approaching others after listening.
One thing is definite: they ALL need and crave something greater than themselves.
There is not anything wrong with sharing one's beliefs if the other is willing to listen, but if not, the sharer should move on. If what he had to offer was good, his job is done, and he should be satisfied, not angry.
Well said Levertis, you make a lot of good points. Listening is key, to be sure. Personally, I have many atheistic tendencies and beliefs, but I am firmly a believer, still not so much so that I believe any of my convictions to be zealous.
I like your suggestion for "sometimes all of the above" in fact, I'm with you on that one.
Also, when you said, "Atheists who press Christians to stop pressing them, who press Christians to "drop that Jesus nonsense" yet strive to insult, belittle Christians in the process?"
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Just as Christians and other religious evangelists condemn others of having beliefs that look different than their own. In my state of Wisconsin, for example, a native American girl was recently expelled (town of Shawano) from her private Christian school for saying "I love you." in her native tongue, I think it was the Ho-Chunk language.
Ignorance of that level shouldn't be repeated but still it persists.
Thanks again for your insight.
Ben
Catherine R 2 years ago
Sorry - I voted but clicked the wrong one! Atheists and Zealots can indeed both be a bore but probably the Zealot wins the prize.